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The MMT Podcast with Patricia Pino & Christian Reilly

Feb 17, 2023

Part 5: Patricia and Christian continue their conversation about Stephanie Kelton’s best-seller The Deficit Myth.


In this episode: what does it mean for a nation to “win” or “lose” at trade?


As the global 99% are pitted against each other in an increasingly gigified international job market, who’s “we” and what is “winning”?


In an effort to dodge their responsibility for domestic unemployment, politicians have become very adept at mesmerising electorates with trade three-card Monte - focusing our attention on jobs and potential income flowing overseas, when a focus on real goods and services flowing *in* from the rest of the world reveals that trade deficits actually *improve* living standards for importing nations in real terms.


Nevertheless, in pursuit of political “wins”, leaders squander actual wins in pursuit of arbitrary economic indicators with the only economic management tool they think they have: unemployment.


Understanding modern money shows how we can truly succeed without sacrificing people or the planet.




Please help sustain this podcast!

Patrons get early access to all episodes and patron-only episodes:




For an intro to MMT:

Our first three episodes:

Episode 126 - Dirk Ehnts: How Banks Create Money:


Our “Unpacking The Deficit Myth” series:


All our episodes in chronological order:


Relevant to this episode:

Shop to Win! Warren Mosler on Trump Tariffs:

Pavlina Tcherneva lays out why the Job Guarantee is core to Modern Monetary Theory in Episode 148:

Fadhel Kaboub defines monetary sovereignty in Episode 12 - Monetary Sovereignty, Colonialism and Independence:

Dirk Ehnts lays out a plan for a Eurozone-wide Job Guarantee in Episode 155:

Paper on the above proposal - “Completing The Euro: The Euro Treasury And The Job Guarantee” by Esteban Cruz Hidalgo, Dirk H. Ehnts & Pavlina R. Tcherneva:

Warren Mosler and Damiano B. Silipo’s Job Guarantee proposal for the eurozone is within this paper - “Maximizing Price Stability in a Monetary Economy”:

For more on the Job Guarantee as a “labour standard” (as opposed to a gold standard) to achieve superior price stability to our current system, listen to our episode 125 - Sam Levey: Monopoly, Monopsony, And What To Do About Them:




Quick MMT reads:

Warren’s Mosler’s MMT white paper:

Steven Hail’s quick MMT explainer:

On government debt: “Some Numbers Are Big. Let Me Help You Get Over It”:


For a short, non-technical, free ebook explaining MMT, download MMT founder Warren Mosler’s “7 Deadly Innocent Frauds Of Economic Policy” here:


Order “The Deficit Myth” by Stephanie Kelton:


Order the Gower Initiative’s “Modern Monetary Theory - Key Insights, Leading Thinkers” (2023):


Order L Randall Wray’s latest book, “Making Money Work for Us” (2022):




Episodes on monetary operations:

Episode 20 - Warren Mosler: The MMT Money Story (part 1):

Episode 126 - Dirk Ehnts: How Banks Create Money:

Episode 13 - Steven Hail: Everything You Always Wanted To Know About Banking, But Were Afraid To Ask:

Episode 43 - Sam Levey: Understanding Endogenous Money:

Episode 84 - Andrew Berkeley, Richard Tye & Neil Wilson: An Accounting Model Of The UK Exchequer (Part 1):

Episode 86 - Andrew Berkeley, Richard Tye & Neil Wilson: An Accounting Model Of The UK Exchequer (Part 2): 


Episodes on inflation:

Episode 7: Steven Hail: Inflation, Price Shocks and Other Misunderstandings:

Episode 65 - Phil Armstrong: Understanding Inflation:

Episode 104 - John T Harvey: Inflation, Stagflation & Healing The Nation:

Episode 123 - Warren Mosler: Understanding The Price Level And Inflation:

Episode 128 - L. Randall Wray & Yeva Nersisyan: What’s Causing Accelerating Inflation? Pandemic Or Policy Response?:


More on government bonds (and “vigilantes”):

Episode 30 - Steven Hail: Understanding Government Bonds (Part 1):

Episode 31 - Steven Hail: Understanding Government Bonds (Part 2):

Episode 143 - Paul Sheard: What Is Quantitative Easing?:

Episode 147 - Dirk Ehnts: Do Markets Control Our Politics?:

Episode 144 - Warren Mosler: The Natural Rate Of Interest Is Zero:

Episode 145 - John T Harvey: What Determines Currency Prices?:


Job Guarantee episodes:

Episode 4 - Fadhel Kaboub: What is the Job Guarantee?:

Episode 47 - Pavlina Tcherneva: Building Resilience - The Case For A Job Guarantee:

Episode 148 - Pavlina Tcherneva: Why The Job Guarantee Is Core To Modern Monetary Theory:


Pavlina Tcherneva’s Job Guarantee FAQ page:


MMT Events And Courses In 2023

Apply for Professor Bill Mitchell’s short, free online course in Modern Monetary Theory (February 15th - March 14th) here:

More information about Professor Mitchell’s MMTed project (free public online courses in MMT) here:

Tickets to the very first Scotonomics festival (online or in-person, Dundee, Scotland 24th-26th March) are available here:

Apply for Dr Dirk Ehnts’ Modern Monetary Theory and European Macroeconomics course at Maastricht University (July 31st - August 4th) here:

Details of Modern Money Lab’s online graduate and postgraduate courses in MMT are here:



Extensive list of MMT scholarship compiled by New Economic Perspectives:


MMT Academic Resources compiled by The Gower Initiative for Modern Money Studies:




A list of MMT-informed campaigns and organisations worldwide:


We are working towards full transcripts, but in the meantime, closed captions for all episodes are available on our YouTube channel:


Show notes: